(no subject)

[ladyrelaynie]

I don't like you, Crouch. I really don't.

But that crack about French-Fauntleroy was priceless.

ETA link.

Comments

[ellemir]

That was funny.

But more seriously Barty talks about the investigation.
Comparing Minerva to Susannah, if that's the story from the Old Testament she was an innocent accused by powerful men. It is starting to look as if they are hoping in her innocence. If they are biased, it might all turn out ok.

Also talking about "the Dung" has to be a reference to Mundungus, surely.

[teceler]

I'm trying to work out if it is Minerva they're comparing to Susannah. I'm not sure who else it could be, but--they reference Iphigenia in the same bit. Unless we're missing something bit and Iphigenia is someone else, but I don't think so.

I don't know.

(Relevant quote, for reference: "...you haven't uncovered anything that could clear Susannah? Or corroborate guilt? Have no more wish than you to sacrifice Iphigenia and then find the witness false.")

[ladyrelaynie]

Couldn't think of a Susannah relation to make, so thank you for suggesting it. Definitely hoping for mercy. From Death Eaters.

Oh dear.

Yes, I agree that they're probably referring to Dung.

[ladyrelaynie]

From the syntax it seems that Susannah is the witness against Iphigenia. It's a female name, Susannah, so the witness is female? Who could that be?

Hopefully not Ridley, because she could blow all of their covers sky high.

[ellemir]

Thinking more about it I can think of only two reasons Barty might err on the side of caution the way he seems to be. To spare either Antonin or Narcissa pain. Antonin would be upset if Minerva were sacrificed I'm sure, but is there more afoot with the machinations over at Malfoy Manor? What if one of Narcissa's friends is under suspicion.

[teceler]

Huh, I was reading it as Saggitarius being the witness, and they were trying to protect Susannah by sacrificing Iphingenia.

(Re: your hypothesis though, I hate to say it, but I don't think we've heard from Rachel, and they specifically wanted to keep it away from MLE...)

[ellemir]

Wait a minute!

Lucius is sending out packages, one of which was to be seen by Rowena Robins. He has other info going out, much either to enemies or former friends. Ari Baddock, rosier , Fudge and Mulciber.

Maybe Antonin and Lucius are using the investigation as an opportunity to incriminate or expose their enemies. Barty is maybe too strait laced to be involved fully in the plot. But we could be seeing a very intricate power play being driven by vague accusations from Dung.

[cheyinka]

I think Susannah = Iphigenia - it's not that it's two pseudonyms, it's that there's "Daniels in the lions' den" (anti-Protectorate teachers at Hogwarts) which for Barty brought to mind Susannah (who was vindicated by Daniel when he questioned her accusers and their testimony didn't match up).

So I can hope that they don't want to say anything without a second supposed witness, and that they don't want to look too hard for that witness. :(

[ladyrelaynie]

Ursula Avery? She's the only female name, besides Miss Robins, and I don't expect she'd rate high in concern from either Narcissa or Antonin. Why would they have to kill Minerva to save Ursula, though? And what relation would she have to Mundungus?

[ellemir]

That's pretty much how I was taking it.

[ladyrelaynie]

That actually makes much more sense given what we know about Lucius, Barty and Dolohov. Hope it doesn't lead to them being found out anyway.

[ellemir]

No, what I was thinking is Barty would usually be more likely to involve Bella, or haul any suspect in and question them if it wouldn't unrail the investigation.

This seems out of character in his not going through regular channels. So I was trying to think of why he would hold back.

But Voldemort sent Antonin back from the initial investigation, didn't he?
Does that mean Voldie is directly calling the shots in these decisions?
That would also explain Barty going along with it.

[ladyrelaynie]

So they're protecting Rachel by sacrificing Minerva, using Mundungus' testimony?

Uh oh. Maybe they're going to implicate the Order in something DogStar did, in order to keep Rachel's name out of it.

Malfoy would do it because he's involved with her, Antonin and Barty because it concerns Malfoy.

If Rachel knows about it., this is going to KILL Bill. Perhaps literally.

[teceler]

That wasn't what I meant (I was thinking based on your interpretation that Rachel might be a secondary witness) but that is also possible, I guess? Though unless Minerva is implicated either way--

Ugh, hopefully Antonin will reply in a manner that clears some of this up, I'm just getting more confused.

[ladyrelaynie]

Me too. What are we missing???

[ellemir]

Now this is scarily plausible.

[annia]

I think Barty has possibly been tracking Lucius though. Or Bode.

Barty's post about the tracer: http://alt-crouch-jr.dreamwidth.org/63003.html?thread=191771#cmt191771

This PM from Lucius to Narcissa: http://alt-lucius.dreamwidth.org/82903.html

[teceler]

I'm trying to come up with a coherent response to this and all I'm getting is !!!

I officially have no idea what's going on here at all.

[cheyinka]

Hmmmmmmmm. That could be interesting, if Barty (and Dolohov??) isn't/aren't allied (for lack of a better word) with Lucius anymore.

Could they be hoping to cause trouble for Lucius, and in the commotion be able to fail to notice something with Minerva?

[teceler]

Following this logic to a conclusion for a moment: the Susannah they're trying to protect could be Narcissa.

Considering Lucius' and Minerva's respective involvements with Selwyn's plot, there's a connection there, and... well.

(Alternatively, Lucius could be under suspicion but it's not confirmed, and they're trying to protect him. I don't know.)

[ladyrelaynie]

That's too specific to be accidental, IMHO.

Wait, what if Rachel recruited Lucius to DogStar? That is a stretch to end all stretches, though, I don't know how plausible that is, but . . . what if?

And if Voldemort is pulling the strings, is he trying to implicate Lucius? By proving the guilt of Minerva (if Minerva is Iphigenia, which I believe), and Lucius by association?

Barty says "the surveillance proved fruitful, S very well connected. Towed me along to trysts, drops, safe houses, and points of exchange."

It sounds to me like he was talking about Sagittarius there, right?

Sagittarius can't be Lucius can it, he's been busy sending packets around. Or sending Weasley to send packets around.

ETA: Waaaaaait. Wait wait wait. I've been assuming the S they were talking about there was Sagittarius, but what if it was Susannah? And if Rachel is Susannah, she has presumably visited Lucius in some of the places he's been. Therefore would be in the same place as him. I propose that the tracer is following Susannah, not Sagittarius, and Rachel, not Lucius.

Rachel is a biblical name too, let's not forget.

[annia]

Barty and Narcissa are having an affair, aren't they? Or they were. Lucius knows about it but it probably makes more sense for Barty wanting to protect Narcissa rather than Rachel.

[ellemir]

Interesting thought!

But in this scenerio who is AN who set Lucius's plans in motion?
Antonin would be playing a very convoluted game, if they had broken with Lucius without his knowledge.

Have we seen any evidence that the falling out between them is more than the estrangement we saw them plan together?

[cheyinka]

It makes much more sense that Barty would want to protect Narcissa, yes. Maybe more than anyone other than Dolohov, really.

[cheyinka]

I can't imagine Rachel recruiting Lucius - neither her trying nor him agreeing.

The surveillance was fruitful - he was watching Sagittarius before he captured him. If the tracer is (or was, if it was temporary) on Lucius, Barty wouldn't have to keep an eye on him in the same way.

[ellemir]

I was just thinking that I'm sure I remember Lucius told Rachel he was in St David's.
I don't think they arranged to meet but she could have followed up on it for Dogstar.

[cheyinka]

No, we haven't.

...it is possible, though I would think extremely unlikely, that Barty believes that Dolohov and Lucius are truly no longer allied even though that is not actually the case.

[stinaleigh]

But Rachel didn't go to St.David...I seem to recall Lucius telling her to stay in London when she offered. (Can't look for link right now).

[annia]

I don't know. Rachel did talk about visiting Lucius when he was in Scotland but he told her not to.

http://alt-rachel.dreamwidth.org/13414.html#comments

Unless, based on that conversation, Rachel went to have a look around northern Scotland and then down to St David's. Or she could have told Dogstar about it. Wait, I need to check Bill's messages. See if he says anything about any info from her regarding the stones and then maybe somebody in the Order went to have a poke around.

And Lucius could have told her about the St David's location (I think they are supposed to be secret) to see if she was a leak.

I don't know!

[teceler]

Bill passes the info along to the Order here, so...

[annia]

F....... Fiddlesticks.

(Edit: Thanks for the link. It's 1am here, I'm too tired to hunt for things myself. )

[ladyrelaynie]

I don't think it was on Lucius, I think it's on Rachel. If Rachel is Susannah, S could be both Sagittarius and Susannah, and I assumed that it was Sag, but what if it isn't? It only looks like it's on Lucius because Rachel has gone where he was. Bill's Report mentions that Rachel was late to her meeting with him. The reason she was late is because she was with Lucius. I'll see if I can find where it says that, gimme a second. ETA: Here it is. She was delayed meeting Bill, after having a conversation with Lucius about the horrid hotels where he was. Both take place on March 20, so I would expect that she saw them both.

[teceler]

Okay, here's another potential scenario:

We know Lucius is under suspicion. Barty gets asked to keep an eye on his moments. This overlaps with the Sagittarius investigation for unknown reasons, maybe just timing.

When they bring in Sagittarius, they get information that they think might clear Lucius (and Narcissa by association), or could be used to do so, but implicates Minerva either directly or by doing so.

[teceler]

I thought she was delayed having that conversation with him.

(I mean, it sounded like they were in the same place before he got called away on that, but..)

[ladyrelaynie]

You mean she was delayed having the conversation with Lucius on the journals? Possibly. I'll go look and see just how long the delay was.

ETA: She messages Bill about the delay at 10:15 and says see you soon.

The last message by Rachel on the conversation thread is posted at 10:20.

Um. Quickie? I don't know, maybe you're right.

[teceler]

Combine that with him as much as telling her not to come...

She could have gone to investigate later, though.

[cheyinka]

That's certainly possible - but were they passing news (of some sort) to Lucius to help him / help them clear him, or to muddy his name further, or...?

Because we found out that AN contacted Lucius with news that set Lucius's plans in motion because Lucius told his clerk. If Dolohov and Lucius are meant to be estranged, would Lucius risk that ruse failing by mentioning it to Percy?

[ladyrelaynie]

True. So not conclusive evidence, but a possibility, maybe.

[teceler]

I don't know! I'm just trying to work out possible ways all of this could fit together.

I was initially assuming that the news AN sent to Lucius was about the threats to Pansy. Which is kind of plausible for Antonin to pass along even if they're supposed to be (or even are) estranged.

It is odd, in any scenario I can think of, really, that Lucius mentions that, a, on the journals, and b, to Percy, though, even with the initials.

[teceler]

In support of your hypothesis on the tracer being on Rachel, her (adoptive) mother lives in Scotland, and she's mentioned visiting her.

[cheyinka]

Rereading the entry where Sally-Anne tells Dolohov what happened, I can imagine him passing along word that Julius Avery had been threatening Pansy. I can imagine him doing so in such a way that it's clear to Lucius, but perhaps not to someone listening, that they are still allied or what-have-you.

But that this led Lucius to tell Percy to tell Ursula Avery that Julius Avery may be in danger, on... Narcissa's stationery? There is something going on and I really don't know what it is. (Or if we have enough information yet that I should be, of course...)

(And I would love to see, after Alternity has ended, some sort of commentary track for these plots!)

[teceler]

I'm not sure how it would have resulted in Lucius doing that, except it possibly being integrated into whatever his ongoing plot is.

Whatever that is. (Yeah, I don't know either)

(Also, this, that would be awesome.)

[ladyrelaynie]

I don't know if this pertains to anything substantial, but according to this, the name Susannah means Lily.

coincidental?

[cheyinka]

Probably - it's best explained by the Daniel-in-the-lion's-den → Daniel-and-Susannah stories.

[cheyinka]

Well, whatever you or I might think about it, Lucius clearly trusts Percy's discretion: "Also, contact Elysian and change my time for Friday - need to get in earlier, before 7 if poss. In fact, find out when BC is running course and overlap his time by about 15 minutes."
was definitely about meeting Barty Crouch, and Barty retrieved a 'package' from Lucius, so that AN provided news is apparently not too sensitive.

(I suppose one might interpret "it might even be true" as "AN's news might even be true" rather than "tell UA that J is in danger, which might even be true", but still!)