The Rite to...ah... Rembody? Voldemort and Various Reactions To It.

[teceler]

So, grabbing that information about Doholov and talking about his reaction to the rite made me start thinking about it again. And how it differs from canon, and how that's important, and such. And also how everyone reacted.

Apparently my brain is in the mood for this kind of thing today.

I'm working more off of Lupin's report on the Pensieve memory here than Harry's report to the ISS, because it's more detailed.

So: They used Selwyn's blood as 'blood of the enemy', which makes sense, as Voldemort's 'death' was his plot, so Voldemort would probably consider him sufficiently Important. (And is naturally, much preferable to him capturing one of the Order for that purpose). However (unless I'm totally misremembering, I don't have the books handy), canonically, using Harry for that had the effect of negating Harry's protection, at least partially. So Harry may still have that (depending on whether he had it in the first place, which is a question of how exactly the difference in Voldemort's understanding of the prophecy changed events there. I don't think we have a solid answer on this?)

The bone is, I think, the only element that matches canon precisely. The Order's discussion on that was interesting--apparently that could be changed, too. (In which case, I'm actually a little surprised that Voldemort didn't go dig up a more Important (I should clarify that this is his definition of important, as far as I grasp it) ancestor to use. Maybe it's stronger with a direct link?

And then we have the substitution of Bella for Pettigrew, and the use of a finger instead of a whole hand. I'm fairly certain we're not going to be seeing more parallels based on that replacement (it seems to be more a matter of who was available and, well, Bella), though the finger/hand thing is interesting.

And...okay, again, I don't have the books in frount of me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall there only being three components in canon? (right, having checked the wikis, yeah, apparently there were only three components with phrases in canon.) So... any ideas on why they included that and how it affected the ritual? (Also: !!!)

Anyway. Then we've got Selwyn's reaction, which is actually an interesting consideration with how this affected people.

As for reactions: Bellatrix, naturally, was excited.. Lucius seems more worried about his own security (and, in context of later revelations, this seems to indicate he was frightened. Antonin Doholov we've already discussed/are discussing. Raz apparently looked somewhat shaken. I think that's everyone we heard from/about, if I missed someone, please say, especially since I seem to be missing at least a few of the more key figures.

Comments

[kiya]

Harry's protection in canon came about from Lily shielding him from the AK, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't have it. (He also doesn't have the other effects of a link with V, such as being a Parseltongue or seeing through Nagini's eyes (IIRC); this also means that V can't send him illusory "prophetic" dreams to lure him into stuff.)

[teceler]

Yeah, I think it's mostly a question of what the Potters knew, and how similarly things played out. I'm assuming Snape made his canonical attempt to protect Lily (I know she's been discussed in conversations he's part of--I don't remember a definite statement, but that doesn't say a lot), and she's dead, so if she died protecting Harry he might have that protection. I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure the link with V was more a result of the AK backfiring, but...

I don't know.

Anyway, my point was that if he had it, he still presumably has it. If it didn't, well, he doesn't. Obviously. Since the ritual affected that in canon...

[kiya]

Three possible categories of Thing to ponder:

* Lily's sacrifice (provides protection)
* spell backlash (disembodies V)
* Harry-as-horcrux (which may be the source of the psychic connection that gave Harry the Parseltongue thing, or that may be part of the backlash)

[teceler]

Ugh, yeah, it's a complicated mess. The latter two are presumably not a factor in Alternity (I think it was mentioned in Y1 that Harry had some Parseltongue, but it didn't come naturally to him--he had to learn it)

The first, though, we don't know about. And I could see its presence ending up being a factor, if it exists. Or it could not come up at all. It's hard to tell.

[adeliej]

Yeah, the Alternity players added the killing of Prince Charles. Which was a bit of a revelation, particularly in the context of undoing the wards. There was a discussion around the time the Muggle wards were put up around Ireland, when the Order was trying to figure out strategies they could use to remove the wards. Someone said that to undo a dark ritual like that, you needed to do the reverse, which meant (in this case) getting Seamus or someone closely related to him to be involved.

Lupin said in the notes from the meeting: Dora broke in and asked whether Minerva was absolutely certain that there was NO way to undo the rite that didn't require someone's death. Minerva sighed heavily and said that no, she wasn't absolutely certain, she wasn't an expert on the Dark Arts or Our Lords' rituals and the mysteries surrounding them. That philosophically it is believed generally that one can always counter Dark with Light, and that in doing so a death would obviously not be required. But to counter death with life, a number of the pieces would be needed alive. And in the case of the British Royal Family... see above about 'Freedom Day.'

But Prince William is alive! So it might be possible to undo the wards if the Order can get him, or one of his relatives (if there are more alive) out of imprisonment.
(I'm guessing Prince William was there so that they could ensure Charles wouldn't resist being killed, as that sounded like an important element of the ritual.)

With the finger rather than hand given by Bella, maybe having the "heart of the conquered, taken by right" meant that the sacrifice by one of his followers didn't need to be as great?

(ETA details of discussion I couldn't find earlier.)

[kiya]

Or Pettigrew was a lower-quality follower and was thus tapped for more meat.

[teceler]

You know, I remembered there was some kind of important thing related to some of the royal family being alive, but I couldn't place what. (Also, if they publicly killed them--what, did they grab some random people and polyjuice them, or something? I suppose that would make sense.)
--additional question--who knew that the royal family was still alive? I don't think Lucius mentioned it, but he was the only one who wrote something post-ritual that I can find. I'm not sure that's important, but it's an interesting question.

Anyway, that may be important information for the Order in the long run. If they can bring down the wards entirely, or even break them for a more significant time--well, they were trying to work out how to do this without more reinforcements. That's one potential stratagem. Though they'd have to find and break out some of the royal family first.

Anyway, that resulting in a smaller sacrifice needed by the follower would make sense, and we have a narrative purpose for it. I was just wondering if there was another reason it was included--it made Voldemort stronger, or something to do with the wards (there was some concern about his death weakening them, wasn't there?), or something like that.

[kiya]

Check out Barty's PMs here:

He tells Bella that he has "collected the valuables" after Lucius sets up Selwyn for the ambush where they took him out, is what I figure.

Raz is told to "bring yours direct to L.H.". When I was trying to figure out if this was the resurrection ritual, I confirmed that LH is correct for Little Hangleton. Raz brought Harry.

Rookwood (and Rod?) are also to deliver a package to LH.

Components for the ritual: the bone (already in LH), Bellatrix (self-mobile), Selwyn (Barty's prize), and the prince, who by process of elimination is in Rookwood's jursdiction.

Checking Lucius's recent messages confirms that Rookwood is Department of Mysteries.

Which makes sense, since they were using royal blood in wards-related rituals (as Bill discovered), which are DoM department, yes? And it occurs to me that Harry's witness and subsequent handing over of the memories to the Order means the Order has possession of memories of two rituals using royal blood, which they might well be able to do something with in the long run.

[teceler]

Yeah, the royals being in the DoM makes sense.

What I'm curious about now, if that was what Rookwood was bringing (which makes sense), why there was a question of whether/how he needed support. I know they've been noting he wasn't what he was, but if it's just a case of deteriorating mental condition, having Rod to help I would think be enough. Any ideas?

And yeah, I'm rather curious what the Order does with this, when they get a chance to re-assess.

[kiya]

Yeah, I think maybe Something's Up with Rookwood? Because the extra support thing is odd.

[capericious]

Do we know for a fact that de-corporealized Voldemort came with Bella? If he came with the DoM crowd (in addition to the royals), that might explain why more hands were needed?
Also, in addition to deteriorating mental condition, I think Rookwood is also suffering from deteriorating physical condition. I just figured that they wanted to be really sure that all the rite elements, particularly the royals for warding, would be in the right place at the right time and didn't want to take chances. That said, it could be something more intriguing as well, especially given that Rookwood has apparently lost control of his department.

[teceler]

I don't know. I hadn't considered that part.

Huh. I was drawing the former conclusion based on him apparently losing control of his department and this. But yeah, there could be additional complications.

[contrariwise]

Didn't Bella cut off her ring finger, too? Telling, that.

[wintercreek]

Let us also note that it's Bellatrix's ring finger she cut off for Voldemort; at one time it was believed that the vein in the left ring finger ran directly to the heart (Citation), so Bellatrix might have been getting as close as she could to literally giving Voldemort her heart. Padma doesn't say which ring finger, but the level of B's devotion suggests left ring finger to me!

[teceler]

Oh, Bella, you're being very very obvious. Are you trying to be so obvious?

Ahem. Anyway. Because she and Rod totally needed more friction in their marriage. I noticed Hydra didn't comment on it--either she was avoiding Bella, or just doesn't want to talk about it. Or both.