This discussion

[ladyrelaynie]

In which Draco breaks my heart into a million pieces.

Ugh. Every option sucks. This is …upsetting.

They CAN'T let Lucius die. The Order does not just let people die!

But damned if I can come up with a solution that doesn't blow, either.

/:(

Comments

[ellemir]

The poly juiced body isn't ethical but might be their best chance of a viable outcome. Especially if the cause of death, method of delivery buy in to the Snape kidnapping him.

Depending on whether the deatheaters are on the side of believing Snape as evil or Antonin's more reasoned thoughts that might mean a tortured corpse or one that experienced an accidental death while trying to escape.

Hermiones idea of kidnapping the Malfoys and getting them away, is a nice idea, but I don't think they can be sure they would cooperate. Narcissa likes her lifestyle too much. If it's that or death they might go along but they could never be trusted so it would mean imprisoning them until the wards can be brought down.

[cheyinka]

Imprisoning them in Saltash, no less, which already has one wizard prisoner, doesn't it? And which no doubt would protest that they didn't sign up to be a convict dump. :/

Leaving a body requires having someone willing to take Polyjuice and then be killed, and that's not so much 'unethical' as 'the Order does not murder people because they want to leave a false trail'.

Kidnapping Lucius without Narcissa would probably put her at risk; kidnapping her as well would make Barty do whatever it took to find her, which is, uh, not optimal.

I suppose they could have Draco cut off a finger and have it be the largest piece in a box of remains.

[cheyinka]

Had an interesting, and horrible thought.

Sally-Anne's experience with the Prophesying Potion included:

Draco's angry, he's angry at everyone, and he's with Bellatrix, is that MLE? it looks like an office, he's sitting at a desk with parchment and pencils and he's drawing something. Did you know Draco draws really beautifully? Except he's not doing a portrait, he's drawing something else. I think it's a map.

This is noteworthy because some of that vision was true: Regulus did die in the cave of Inferi, and they are likely to need to get Umbridge out of the plate. (Well, that, and, trivially, Dolohov and Crouch probably did laugh together while reading the paper in mid-April.)

What if Draco decides to turn himself in? And tries to lead Bellatrix into a trap, or something?

[ellemir]

So Polyjuice is out because of tapestries and portraits.
Kidnapping the Malfoys is the best option left, but I think you are right Cheyinka that Draco will probably be in the position seen in the prophesy.
I can only hope he is still on the side of the order at that point.

[cheyinka]

The tapestry also rules out "box of Draco's remains" - they'd know he wasn't dead.

I just don't see what happens after kidnapping them. "Hi! You guys were benefiting from the current regime and have no moral qualms with wizards enslaving Muggles and Muggleborn wizards and witches being treated like cattle. We do, so we've kidnapped you and hidden you somewhere you can't use magic because Draco doesn't want either of you to die for him."

Now what? They have to be in Saltash, which isn't going to want them and where they have no interest in going. They will be searched for, because Lucius is a Councilwizard and Dolohov considers him a brother, and because Barty and Narcissa are... whatever it is they are to each other.

[ellemir]

This is all true, and will probably send Draco back to give himself up.
However, I don't think they are currently thinking things through long term, just looking to find a solution to the immediate problem.
If they do get Lucius and Narcissa it will be very problematic in the short term. However the Malfoys aren't stupid. Voldie is already willing to kill Lucius and Lucius has already been revealed to have doubts. If they are kidnapped they will know there is no way back into their privileged lives, because the LP will be sure they have betrayed him. As that point however angry and antagonistic they are, they will eventually realise that their only chance of survival lies with the Order. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect them to join the order or even help them much, but acting against them will not be in their best interests.

[ellemir]

It looks like Rachel wants to be sure they would look incriminated.

[teceler]

I'm kind of vaguely wondering what they would do with the tapestry if they could get access, actually. If they destroyed it, it would be really obvious why, and I don't know how tamper-resistant those things are.

[ellemir]

If there are rites to add someone, I guess there must be a rite to remove someone. Other than blasting the tapestry like the Black family does to Sirius and the Tonks family in canon. If they could remove the link to Draco, then maybe one of the embroidery charms Megan and, I think, Evelyn have talked about using would be sufficient to replace his name and add a date of death. Or what about if Draco was no longer a Malfoy? Would magically renouncing his name mean a date would appear? Or maybe one of the rites Antonin considered but didn't use when adopting Barty because he didn't need or want Barty to give up his Crouch heritage? We would know it represents his name change, but to an outsider the date would be believed to be that of his death.

[stinaleigh]

I was going to say that Draco has already had his stand-off with Bella, but that was Hogwarts, not the Ministry.

[ellemir]

And he didn't draw anything, especially not a map.
Oo, I just had a thought. It's unlikely because of the modified fidelius but:

What if Draco shows them how to apparate into a sealed cave below Saltash. It doesn't have to be the one they use, as long as it leads into the null field.
That could require a map to show them what they will be getting into.
They would then walk in to Saltash not expecting the null field and the Order and Saltash residents could capture them. I'd love to see Bellatrix surrounded by Muggles and attempt to fight them with a useless wand. Can you imagine her face?
A man made rockfall would prevent any future encroachments.

[lucky_guess]

You are an evil genius.

[teceler]

The obvious problems there are (other than the fidelius) that they're not going to trust him without taking measures.

It's a nice thought, though.

[ellemir]

Measures back at MLE could be circumvented by Auror Lamont, maybe with the help of a new Intern?
Any in the field measures would almost certainly rely on Magic, and would be useless.

Or if risking Saltash is a step too far, they have a fortnight. Now they know Frank has regained some magic, they might be able to find someone willing to risk the consequences of a modded Fidelius, as there is hope of a better outcome.
If they created a null zone in an abandoned area, they could use the same plan without risking rebel locations or resources.

[ellemir]

In the second case they could leave knowledge of it with MLE in the hope that they would continue to try to break in and waste resources.

[cheyinka]

Just had a hilarious (and incredibly unlikely) idea:

What if he's drawing a map to explain how Saltash was warded? With the intent of having Bellatrix either cast it or get someone to cast it?

[ladyrelaynie]

Oh my God, PLEASE can this happen? Because if Draco does go back and betray them, they are all royally fucked.

Especially since he's now seen both Sherwood and Moddey.

And Grimmauld Place.

Not to mention the million other things that he knows.

I don't want to believe Draco would sell any of them out (especially Hermione) but, put in the same position, I truly don't know what I would do. It's bloody Sophie's Choice going on in here.

[cheyinka]

Hmm. Your mention of showing them how to get to Saltash makes me wonder: when Frank made the Saltash field, Alice's ring went cold. Would "losing magic" count as "dying" to a tapestry?

Might Draco attempt to null-field MLE?

[ellemir]

I had considering suggesting Draco might cast the Modded Fidelius but dismissed it because I couldn't imagine Draco ever willingly giving up his magic, although I have no doubt he would willingly risk death for something he felt worthwhile.
I do like your idea of losing magic being like a death for the tapestry, it might be possible. I wonder if just being within the null field might be good enough, as we can't be sure what exactly made Alice's ring react. I know he was briefly at Saltash already, maybe he could hide there.
The modded Spell is quicker to cast with few preparations, no need for salt or bare feet we have been told. However, while I love the idea in theory, I can't imagine Draco being left alone with his wand long enough to cast anything if he gives himself up. I wish he would though. The thought of Bella and Barty reduced to squib status, however briefly , on their own patch is far better than my idea of seeing them at Saltash.

Running with that thought what if they cast it on Malfoy Manor. At best it might give them the chance to kidnap the Malfoys. At worst, if the Tapestry itself is within a null field surely you couldn't rely on its data.
Even if it was later removed you could not be sure that it would still work in the same way, so lack of a death date might be excused.

[cheyinka]

Or just imprison them in their own house, if Malfoy Manor is within a null field. That might not necessitate Draco being the Saltash-ifier, though I don't know who'd volunteer for that.

[ellemir]

Maybe one of the men from Strangeweale's experiment. Their need to expiate their guilt might make them volunteer.

Or one of the muggle born women who chose to go to Saltash and live without magic after their ordeal. They might think the chance of offering others the same choice at another location is worthwhile.
Minerva would have been ideal if she had lived. We don't have any elderly or terminally. Ill wizards who might volunteer.

I don't suppose it is possible for someone to cast it under Imperius, but it would be cool if they could. It would allow them to sentence Otto Strangweale and others loyal to the LP, in such a way that it would reduce their risk to the order, by leaving them without magic, but wouldn't be a certain death sentence. It might sit better with Albus and Poppy than the hanging did.

[cheyinka]

I imagine it involves a willing sacrifice to work, which rules out Imperius.

Given that Frank's magic is returning, I don't think it would work as a solution for prisoners in general, especially since the concern is usually "they will escape and tell people things they've seen" more than "we need a sufficient punishment".