Hm. I recognize I'm in the minority here, but I'm not feeling this is so cut and dried, and I'm not feeling robustly sympathetic to Siz.
To start with, it would be different if Barty had been left to die in the Forest, abandoned and untreated. Or if he had been evacuated and then allowed to die in Order custody through neglect or abuse. He wasn't. He was dead. Yes, his corpse was left behind when Hydra, whom he had nearly killed, was evacuated. He was dead on a battlefield of his own choosing. In centaur territory, not Order territory.
Fast forward to Evelyn. Okay. There's a treaty that supposedly covers the repatriation of remains. It hadn't been invoked by Dolohov. Evelyn contacted him on her own behalf and deliberately did not tell her side she'd done so. If Dolohov thought he was being offered an official all-clear to collect his dead, he was mistaken (and kinda dumb).
If Dolohov wanted to invoke the treaty, he should have contacted Alice or Remus or maybe Rachel or even, maybe Madam Pomfrey, to ask that they send Barty's remains back or allow him a truce to go collect them himself. Maybe they'd have said okay. Maybe they'd have said: 'Okay, we won't interfere with you, but we aren't going into the Forest for you, and we can't speak for what the Centaurs might do to you because they aren't party to that treaty, and... we think they might have reasons to be hacked off that Crouch picked their Forest as a place to stage a really horrendous Dark duel in. So, you know, good luck with that.'
And then Sinistra... What's with the flouncing at Alice? In what sense has she not had support from the Order? They aren't brainwashing her to hate the people she has relationships with on the other side. I think they may even be lending protection to the members of her family who aren't Order-sympathetic, and Alice has never demanded that she cut ties to Dolohov. I really think the 'I'm going elsewhere to find what it's clear I can't find here' was unwarranted. Try flinging that sort of line at Bellatrix and see what the Order offers its partisans that the other side does not, you know? Meanwhile, Siz has been given resources and personnel and encouraged to use her expertise to work on really important projects that have contributed crucially to the Order's mission, and she has been recognized for that work. And she's been not only allowed but encouraged to mentor promising young members to work with her... Including Alice's own daughter. That's not a sign that she's been marginalized and treated as a pariah or has had her accomplishments neglected. I just...
I get that Siz is distressed about Dolohov, and that she feels many conflicting emotions, and that comes across richly in what she's said. (Well done, player.)
I don't think, however, that Siz has grounds for being upset at Alice and the Order in this case.Yep, Rachel authorized an ambush on Dolohov when Hydra found out what Evelyn had done and kept secret. But no one, not Evelyn, not Dolohov, had invoked the treaty to cover his attempt to repatriate Barty's remains. And if he's used the situation to manipulate Siz's emotions to set her against Alice et al? That's an excellent attack strategy on his part. Dovs 1, Order 0. Actually Dovs 2, Order 0. (Today is Ginny's birthday.)
... okay, your argument has just squicked me out about the Order even harder, in this circumstance.
They started out with grieving their dead, wishing with all earnestness that people could be returned to their families for a proper burial. Wondering how the other side could deny them that.
And then, well. At the time, Barty was apparently in pieces all over the landscape and that's more work than he was worth, obviously, especially in the absence of a clear next of kin. But that wasn't the reason that was given for leaving him there; it looks to me like a post-hoc justification for what looked to me at the time like Tonks going, "You know, I was fostered with that little shit and his fucked-up family, let him rot." The fact that Draco asked what he should do indicates that there was a choice involved; it wasn't a case of "We need to medevac Hydra and angry centaurs are closing in as we speak, we don't have time."
Because "Maybe someone would care about these remains" goes out the window when it's Barty. Because it's easy to say "Why don't they give us our dead" and hard to say "This horrific waste of protein was a horrific waste of protein but also a human being."
Barty did a whole lot more to be reasonably disqualified from "human" than, say, the muggleborn members of society, but the facts on the ground are that both sides have now - willingly - disqualified certain people from "human". It may be more understandable when the Order does it, but it being understandable doesn't make it righteous.
Is there a treaty covering repatriation of the dead? I recall St. M's neutrality negotiations, but not that. If there is, then regardless of whether or not Tosha went through the right channels - if there are such channels - his attempt to recover Barty entirely at his own risk is still an attempt to recover the dead and there's an argument that interference in same breaks that treaty.
If there isn't, the Order had two choices: use his grieving as an opportunity to attack him (and lose any moral high ground and any legitimate grounds to object to not having Harry's, Neville's, or Turner's bodies to bury), or let him recover Barty.
I would personally have rather seen the Order continue to have standing to say "You never gave us back Harry. You never gave us back Neville." But they spent that. As Cedric crossed out, "What are we..."
As for the moral high ground, you're right. It looks like Rachel made a call that a chance to kill Dolohov is something not to be passed up. As for the rest, they continue to not have Harry's or Neville's remains and never will, so I agree that doesn't seem to have been part of Rachel's equation. A chance to kill Dolohov appears to have been weighed not in relation to morality but to military objective: killing Dolohov could bring them a step closer to ending the war.
... so basically the only reason the Order hasn't now violated that agreement made by the healers/morticians is that the remains were never gotten into the hands of morticians in the first place.
Which isn't the Order's fault, per se, but was the upshot of the Order's decisions.
Edited (added last line) Date: 2015-08-11 09:18 pm (UTC)
You have just made me worry that there is something horrible going to happen with Charlie and that it has to do with whatever surprise Ptolemy Baddock has for Ginny tonight.
I was worried about that too, but I'm hoping that he'd be an important enough person to be interrogated by Bellatrix (and so we'd hear about it) and/or Poppy's contact at St. M's could have given her notice by now. I hope.
...I think it would've been different if a.) Bella (or anyone) had actually asked for the remains, or b.) if Dolohov had been known to have been alive at the time.
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winterfish
no subject
Date: 2015-08-10 05:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 06:11 pm (UTC)Alice then.
Alice now.
"Pretty much all adults are hypocrites."
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 08:20 pm (UTC)To start with, it would be different if Barty had been left to die in the Forest, abandoned and untreated. Or if he had been evacuated and then allowed to die in Order custody through neglect or abuse. He wasn't. He was dead. Yes, his corpse was left behind when Hydra, whom he had nearly killed, was evacuated. He was dead on a battlefield of his own choosing. In centaur territory, not Order territory.
Fast forward to Evelyn. Okay. There's a treaty that supposedly covers the repatriation of remains. It hadn't been invoked by Dolohov. Evelyn contacted him on her own behalf and deliberately did not tell her side she'd done so. If Dolohov thought he was being offered an official all-clear to collect his dead, he was mistaken (and kinda dumb).
If Dolohov wanted to invoke the treaty, he should have contacted Alice or Remus or maybe Rachel or even, maybe Madam Pomfrey, to ask that they send Barty's remains back or allow him a truce to go collect them himself. Maybe they'd have said okay. Maybe they'd have said: 'Okay, we won't interfere with you, but we aren't going into the Forest for you, and we can't speak for what the Centaurs might do to you because they aren't party to that treaty, and... we think they might have reasons to be hacked off that Crouch picked their Forest as a place to stage a really horrendous Dark duel in. So, you know, good luck with that.'
And then Sinistra... What's with the flouncing at Alice? In what sense has she not had support from the Order? They aren't brainwashing her to hate the people she has relationships with on the other side. I think they may even be lending protection to the members of her family who aren't Order-sympathetic, and Alice has never demanded that she cut ties to Dolohov. I really think the 'I'm going elsewhere to find what it's clear I can't find here' was unwarranted. Try flinging that sort of line at Bellatrix and see what the Order offers its partisans that the other side does not, you know? Meanwhile, Siz has been given resources and personnel and encouraged to use her expertise to work on really important projects that have contributed crucially to the Order's mission, and she has been recognized for that work. And she's been not only allowed but encouraged to mentor promising young members to work with her... Including Alice's own daughter. That's not a sign that she's been marginalized and treated as a pariah or has had her accomplishments neglected. I just...
I get that Siz is distressed about Dolohov, and that she feels many conflicting emotions, and that comes across richly in what she's said. (Well done, player.)
I don't think, however, that Siz has grounds for being upset at Alice and the Order in this case.Yep, Rachel authorized an ambush on Dolohov when Hydra found out what Evelyn had done and kept secret. But no one, not Evelyn, not Dolohov, had invoked the treaty to cover his attempt to repatriate Barty's remains. And if he's used the situation to manipulate Siz's emotions to set her against Alice et al? That's an excellent attack strategy on his part. Dovs 1, Order 0. Actually Dovs 2, Order 0. (Today is Ginny's birthday.)
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 08:46 pm (UTC)They started out with grieving their dead, wishing with all earnestness that people could be returned to their families for a proper burial. Wondering how the other side could deny them that.
And then, well. At the time, Barty was apparently in pieces all over the landscape and that's more work than he was worth, obviously, especially in the absence of a clear next of kin. But that wasn't the reason that was given for leaving him there; it looks to me like a post-hoc justification for what looked to me at the time like Tonks going, "You know, I was fostered with that little shit and his fucked-up family, let him rot." The fact that Draco asked what he should do indicates that there was a choice involved; it wasn't a case of "We need to medevac Hydra and angry centaurs are closing in as we speak, we don't have time."
Because "Maybe someone would care about these remains" goes out the window when it's Barty. Because it's easy to say "Why don't they give us our dead" and hard to say "This horrific waste of protein was a horrific waste of protein but also a human being."
Barty did a whole lot more to be reasonably disqualified from "human" than, say, the muggleborn members of society, but the facts on the ground are that both sides have now - willingly - disqualified certain people from "human". It may be more understandable when the Order does it, but it being understandable doesn't make it righteous.
Is there a treaty covering repatriation of the dead? I recall St. M's neutrality negotiations, but not that. If there is, then regardless of whether or not Tosha went through the right channels - if there are such channels - his attempt to recover Barty entirely at his own risk is still an attempt to recover the dead and there's an argument that interference in same breaks that treaty.
If there isn't, the Order had two choices: use his grieving as an opportunity to attack him (and lose any moral high ground and any legitimate grounds to object to not having Harry's, Neville's, or Turner's bodies to bury), or let him recover Barty.
I would personally have rather seen the Order continue to have standing to say "You never gave us back Harry. You never gave us back Neville." But they spent that. As Cedric crossed out, "What are we..."
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 09:12 pm (UTC)As for the moral high ground, you're right. It looks like Rachel made a call that a chance to kill Dolohov is something not to be passed up. As for the rest, they continue to not have Harry's or Neville's remains and never will, so I agree that doesn't seem to have been part of Rachel's equation. A chance to kill Dolohov appears to have been weighed not in relation to morality but to military objective: killing Dolohov could bring them a step closer to ending the war.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 09:16 pm (UTC)Which isn't the Order's fault, per se, but was the upshot of the Order's decisions.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 09:19 pm (UTC)Fuck fuck fuck.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 11:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 11:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-12 03:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-11 09:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-12 05:00 pm (UTC)http://alt-ptolemy.dreamwidth.org/8494.html
Damn I wish Tosha was back in charge of Ginny. At least he wouldn't rape her.
no subject
Date: 2015-08-12 05:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-12 05:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-12 05:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-14 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-15 03:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-08-15 05:29 pm (UTC)