The Increasing Elisions of Antonin Nikolaevich Dolohov

[kiya]

The discussion about Dolohov’s loyalties appearing strained post-V-death-and-resurrection sort of struck me oddly, so I have gone on an archive dig. (I had noticed his increasing tendency towards strikeouts; because there’s so much material I’m just scanning quickly for strikeouts that appear relevant rather than rereading everything in detail.) I started checking back in October, and didn’t find anything relevant there or in November.

The first one that I noticed was this private message exchange with Barty, located on 23 December and in the aftermath of the bombing that killed Arthur, which included the strikeouts “My heart nearly stopped when He was looking in your direction when” and “Do you ever sometimes want to just”. The first seems to be a clear sign of concern about V’s instability and likelihood to lash out at just anyone; the latter … much more complicated, and I’m not sure what I can pin down about that other than “Wistful pining for life to be different”.

Next, conversation with Seamus prior to the sacrificial ritual. He swaps “agreed” for “dictated” in his first response, and I’m not sure what to make of that: whether this is to disavow responsibility for replacing Seamus as the victim, or to more accurately represent a case of “When I brought this up, V seized upon it and commanded it”. Later in the same conversation, he strikes out “However, I would not like to see Our Lord’s reaction should you [fail]”. (My interpolation added.) Again, anticipation of disproportionate response, which might in this case be anticipated to not only fall on Seamus but on those who proposed the substitution.

Though it doesn’t have strikeouts (by Dolohov at least), this conversation between Dolohov and Lucius is well worth reviewing for insight into Dolohov’s printable thoughts about current politics at that time – which I will note falls immediately after the sacrificial ritual, while he is still on the high.

Most of the next posts from Dolohov are occupied with the aggravation of Umbridge (band name!) and discussions of his medical condition with Poppy. There is a comment (struck out) about Barty “being a mother hen”, which clearly has “worried” substituted for it in order to preserve Crouch’s dignity. ;) Soon after that, he goes into the coma. When he comes to, much of his strikeoutness has to do with Umbridge; this conversation with Lucius touches on events at the Frost Faire interestingly, though it contains no strikeouts. Then our interests combine, in this conversation with Siz he strikes out “And before Our Lord decided it would amuse Him to see what happens” regarding the potential for getting rid of Umbridge.

Next, Linus. Oh, Linus. Linus happily finding things to analyse, who starts doing Quiddich team evaluations on Death Eaters, seeing which ones work best together, who it’s a danger to work with at all. And here the strikeout is “It would not have been quite so volatile had he not also included Our Lord in his [analysis].” In other words, Linus handed Dolohov mathematical proof/evidence/whatever that working with V is seriously bad for your health, which he nearly mentions to Barty.

Back to Umbridge: Dolohov is displeased with the whole situation in which Harry is supposed to deal with the matter, and strikes out “I am almost ready to explain matters to him and offer to hold his robes for him while he skins the woman alive”. Here, his frustration with the notion that Harry – who he elsewhere describes as having the “killer instinct of a wet grape” – should figure out he needs to act against Umbridge without support from the adults who are aware of the scheme. (Incidentally, one thing I really appreciate about Alternity, you players? The fact that this is the only time I can think of where the plot has major aspects of “the grownups are depriving Harry of critical information”, unlike every single plot of Rowling’s ever. Ahem.)

Then there’s this conversation with Barty, which really deserves to be read in full, but which contains eliding “our Lord’s wishes” (presumably because he does not want to admit that people he cares about are being harmed by the whole ‘Umbridge is kept in position until Harry deals with her’ thing), “And if He permitted her to dispose of Minerva and Raz, how could I expect Him to speak for me when she decides I am next”, and “Before anything else can happen to”, apparently expecting things to go badly for those he cares about in general, or in a manner that interferes with his adoption of Barty.

(Worth noting here, though not relevant to my investigation, is Dolohov’s response to Fawcett’s ‘death’, which includes his comment that Fawcett was “entrusted to my care” and “they are mine for the length of time they and I are both here, and I cannot help but advocate for them, even those who will not amount to much.” Dolohov appears here to take his role as teacher as including some sort of protector aspect, which may explain part of his reaction to the DoM raid: that his self-conceived duties as an advocate for the students include protecting them even from Barty. Certainly, they extended to going to great effort to trying to locate a student that he himself considered unremarkable, if passingly useful. He also tells Harry, later, not to feel indebted to him for saving Cedric, as that would be “imply[ing] [he] did something other than [his] duty”.)

Whoof, anyway, that brings me up through April; May is harder to check but I don’t find anything further checking plausible entries in summaries, and I’m not digging back through the last week! Summary of findings so far: Dolohov’s opinions of what’s going on can be read in the strikeouts and between the lines of his comments primarily to Barty and Lucius, secondarily to Siz, and occasionally elsewhere.

Comments

[stormyhearted]

I have tried to put together a coherent response to this (which is awesome, btw, Kiya) but that seems to be out of my reach at the moment.

I will say that Tosha is one of my absolute favorite characters in Alternity, and I find that I regularly have to remind myself that he is a sociopath because he is so damned charming. I look forward to his continued... unease over his Lord's choices, and I really hope we get to see him in some truly difficult choices (Tosha v Raz, Siz, Minerva, Narcissa & Lucius... I can't fathom how we'd get Tosha v Barty but that would be amazing to watch!)

[teceler]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing his actions with the kids and with Lucius and Narcissa given what he now knows. Because it could be anything from watching them more carefully for treasonous behavior to covering for them if something more happens. And it's hard to tell at this point, and probably depends on a million different variables.
(Additionally, as you said, anything else he might turn up. And I would love to see Raz and Toshenka have a frank conversation about their thoughts--it's probably not going to happen, and even if it did it wouldn't be where we could see it (barring the invention of another lock or something, which I guess isn't entirely out of the question, but is... unlikely). )

I think we might get some interesting conflicts of loyalty with Tosha and Barty if Barty realizes what Tosha was doing back in the DoM or something similar. And that would be really interesting to watch.

[batrachian]

Delicious meta, I love it all.

(And thank you for reminding me for the whole 'Linus does statistics on the Council' subplot; thinking back on it I'm wondering when/if Linus will realize the size of the grenade he handed to Tosha.)

And yes. Massive kudos to Tosha's author for writing such a complex, three-dimensional, likable villain. (Hero of his own story? Pragmatist? It's hard to put a single label on him.) In fact, for quite a while I was watching the indirect friction between Molly Weasley and Tosha and cheering for his perspective. So, uh. Yeah. :)

[kiya]

Was that the "do we infantilise the children or treat them like potential contributors" indirect friction? ;)

But seriously, Dolohov knows full well how critical the teenagers/young adults are to a successful revolution - still full of energy and poor impulse control! - because that's how he helped win the last one. And how many young warriors did he help recruit because he put on his best face, charmed them with interesting reading or the opportunity to learn 'forbidden' (at the time) magic, and took them seriously?

[batrachian]

That is precisely the friction I was alluding to.

And yes. They're not adults, Tosha doesn't treat them as equals. But he damn well realizes that they're going to be involved one way or the other, so let's try to align them to our side.

Molly seemed (up until very recently) to be cheerfully willing to stick her head in the sand and completely ignore that fact. I was...flabbergasted when the Institute forced the Order's hand with the escape, because that 'protect the children' mentality has been part of Molly's worldview for so many years, it's not easy for her to give it up. But she's trying, which is more than I was expecting.

[teceler]

I thought I'd grab the last week--it's all still on alt-player's reading page, and would be good to have for reference.

The first thing that stands out to be, though it lacks any strike-outs (and okay, this is a little before the last week, bear with me) is the discussion on Selwyn's PM to Doholov and Lucius on Higgs' elevation, specifically Doholov's confusion thereupon.

Then we have the PMs on the post Doholov makes immediately after hearing the news of Voldemort's... ah, disembodiment. The first few are him striking out things along the lines of 'I cannot believe that', but the conversation with Barty...
Particularly, "Did we fail Him? Or did He fail us? No -- of course we did; we would not be in these circumstances had we not." and the striking out of "And given what I have seen of Him in the past year, I am not surprised that He should care little for those of us left behind. He has been so preoccupied that He had forgot loyalty ought run in both directions" (after which he complains that he isn't making sense--I dunno, Antonin, you're making plenty of sense there. More than usual, in some ways.)

The next strikeout we have from him is on the PM to Lucius where notes the disturbance that was presumably Tonks and Frank. "(How quickly we fall into suspicion of each other. I still cannot believe something so banal could overcome)"

When Barty sends out all those PMs setting up for the ritual, Doholov is the only one to respond. I'm not entirely sure what he stops himself from saying, there-- I remember wondering at the time, and with the context we have now it may have to do with the whole death thing.

Something I'm not sure whether is notable or not: When they're looking for Chloe and the kids, Lucius writes a PM concerning this to Barty and Toshenka. The latter does not comment at all. (Actually, Barty's comments on there, and seeing them, might have influenced Toshenka's decisions at the Ministry.)

When Barty calls him to the Ministry from the wedding, he says "Will not bother making my excuses -- if this is nothing I do not wish to have disturbed the newlyweds; if it is something, let them have their last moments of peace.", which... could be any number of things, but I thought was notable.

Antonin and Barty's conversation in the Ministry, of course, has already been throughly analyzed, but I thought I'd include it for completeness.

And then we have the aftermath--particularly Antonin completely freaking out here, which was part of what got this discussion going in the first place--the struck out "I have had absolutely fucking enough this week of finding that people have been desecrating the" (presumably 'dead').

Then we move along to Narcissa's post after Court, where his immediate response is, (not struck out) "Have you" and then (struck out) "I cannot bear any more of this". (his response to her revelation a little later is also notable)

Finally, his and Siz's exchange in PMs re: Court contains this gem: the substiution of "the proper protocols and behaviours" for "how to survive this" (!!).

(Oh, and there's also his message to himself, but that's been thoroughly picked apart already too.)

ETA: So, yeah, we've looked at most of that already, but a couple of them we haven't.

[kiya]

My guess for that "even if" in the ritual preparation is probably something like "even if this Rite is too dark for my devoutly held beliefs".

Thanks for going through the last week - after I spent most of the day doing the rest of it I just couldn't deal anymore. :} I got the impression that this last week has basically stretched him to the breaking point in several different ways, honestly.

[teceler]

Yeah, I was reading it at the time as maybe concern for Barty (especially with our vague intel on the details at the time), but now...

I'm not sure 'too dark' would be quite the right term. Because there are different kinds of dark, and different kinds of...twisting the natural order isn't quite the right term, but it gives the general idea. And I think the main thrust of what freaked him out with that Rite was more the undoing of death (and possibly the use of the bones of the dead, I'm not sure), than... I don't know. 'dark' is pretty blanket, and also covers things that have been proven not to bother him.

[kiya]

I was using "dark" with deliberate intention, knowing that he hates that terminology because it's an emotionally-driven condemnation of the socially condemned. ;)

[teceler]

Ah. In that case, enjoy yourself :)

I think what I was trying to say (and utterly failing at it) that different kinds of dark magic can be... morally problematic... in different ways. And some/many of those he seems to have absolutely no issue with, but this one he does. And I wouldn't necessarily make a scale of dark as much as a spectrum. --did that make any sense?

so, to rephrase your original sentence, it's dark in a way he has issues with. It's the kind of dark, not the depth.

[teceler]

Okay, actual reply now. I'm going to echo the 'that was awesome meta stuff' responses above, because, well.

Re: the conversation between Toshenka and Lucius post-ritual (the wards one, not the Voldemort-rembodiment-one)--that was the conversation I was thinking of when we were talking about his views on death. Except it was with Lucius, not Barty.

Was he unconscious for the whole thing with the Fleets? I'm not seeing anything about it, and it would be interesting to see his opinion considering his reaction to Sarah Fawcett's 'death' and... recent events.

I hadn't though about how reading what Lines had put together (speaking of which, would have liked to have seen that. It sounded interesting) would have made him think about things, at the time, just about it being a giant bomb to defuse. Huh.

Anyway, back on Sarah Fawcett, and Toshenka's conception of his duty to his students--I think you might be right there. Though-- I think his reaction might have been different if they had actually been after the Octobrus (sp?) as the original assumption was, or even maybe, as Sally-Anne and Pansy discussed, been trying to help Hermione or Terry instead of Arista and Hector. (I'm actually not entirely sure re: Hermione, if Harry was involved (and assumed to be leading), because I think he might see that as Harry feeling a responsibility toward her, and I think he might respect that. I don't know. It would probably depend a lot on the circumstances.)

[kiya]

Oh, I'm pretty sure if they'd been doing something directly treasonous his oath to V would have overcome his subsidiary obligation to look after them. But once he figured out that they were almost certainly rescuing other kids rather than fucking with something "serious" he told Barty to pull back.

[teceler]

Yeah. (The only reason I'm not entirely certain there is because of, well, what we've been discussing. But I think you're correct on that.)

Hrm, now I'm wondering where exactly he bases his obligation to take care of the kids. Which is to say, is it tied more to Voldemort assigning him to the school (unclear, he seemed to be cross at Voldemort on behalf of the students in some of the cross-outs, but that could be interpreted different ways), or tied to his role as a teacher? Or something else?

[adeliej]

I've been taking it as more focused onto the role he has been assigned, partly as being a teacher for the students, and partly as, as he teaches Noble Arts, having a crucial role in preparing them for what he sees as the future of the Protectorate. So he feels that, to prepare them for the world, he has to keep them safe and give them time to learn.

I guess I see his view of his obligation as mainly tied to his role as a teacher, but also specifically to the subject he is teaching.

[capericious]

OK, so I have to ask. Re: what Linus wrote, I actually interpreted that sentence differently and imagined that Voldemort was included as a fighter and the analysis showed his weaknesses or strategies in battle. Did anyone else read it that way?

[stormyhearted]

I originally read it that way, but it occurred to me later that the requisite information for Linus to compile something like that might not exist. Lists of who participated in which battle are one thing; lists of spells/curses cast during battle and success/fail rates aren't something that the average person would share, I don't think. They might put it together for their own viewing and improvement, but it's not the sort of document Linus would likely have access to.

[contrariwise]

Yeah, that's what I thought too, and I thought Dolohov was shocked and horrified because Voldemort wasn't ranked the absolute highest. And because it showed that Voldemort has weaknesses, which a total loyal follower like, say, Bellatrix, would take offense at.

[kiya]

Okay so, we have Hydra's read on Dolohov's state of mind.

* He was straight-up horrified to have been fighting the kids.
(Because they were his students and thus in his care? Because they were acting in a manner that was going to get them killed by someone? Because it reveals he doesn't know something significant about their inner lives?)

* He really wants to know what the heck they were doing.
(Duh.)

* He wants to know where the Selwyn kids are.
* He will not ask where the Selwyn kids are, because he will feel obliged to go get them if he knows.

* He tortured Selwyn for information; Selwyn, as we had more or less guessed, asked him to spare his kids.
(We might guess that this combined with the his-students thing is why he diverted Barty for a bit, because his inaction in that regard would fulfil his brother's last wishes and let the his-students not get themselves killed?)

* He was glad Barty did not witness Selwyn's requests of him, presumably because he knew Barty would interfere with his acting upon his "scruples".
(Probably the thing about innocents that Barty was twitting him about.)

* Power/cruelty/enjoyment/regret is an interesting combination for a crucio.
(Dolohov takes the chosen family thing very seriously, and his brother being sufficiently "ill-advised" that he had to die makes him sad? As a read on that? Duty still dominant, but the duty is not embarked upon joyfully even though he enjoys its execution? Dolohov appears to get off on the usage of this kind of power on an abstract level, almost.)

* He appears to be really disturbed by V, in a constant-loop kind of way, and associates that with Selwyn's comment about being toyed with and destroyed.
(Plays into his comments about loyalty going both ways as something that might really inspire doubts in him.)

* He is really pushy about wanting to train Justin in particular. Justin is unenthused.
(Unimpressed Draco's unimpressed at this is pretty epic.)

[capericious]

First off, this is fantastic work, Kiya and Teceler! Very interesting (and doubtless very helpful for future readers as they play catch-up.) Truly an analysis worthy of Linus Moon.

As we talk about the many reasons Tosha might want to part ways with Voldemort's particularly brand of crazy, I started thinking about why he joined in the first place and what it'd take to overcome those pro-Voldemort sentiments. I know his Feelings on Things have been a point of discussion before so I'm going to use that as a bit of a jumping-off point.

As far as why he joined with Voldemort, it sort of seems to come down to power and knowledge--the access to Dark texts and the ability to do Dark magic that wasn't allowed in the previous regime. He might not be the biggest fan of Muggles, but he seems to voice that less.

Right now, the scales are tipped so that power/knowledge (all the Dark books you could read!) seem to be outweighing terrible acts (so some magical children may die or some souls may be irreparably damaged). Perhaps the Cons may later become so terrible as to outweigh the Pros--e.g. being told to harm Justin or Harry (or even Siz/Raz). Then again, he did sort of stand idly by for the past year while they were in some danger from the Pink Menace.
We'll see how he responds to Barty's mention of the experiments at Eton--I would think that his distaste for killing magical children/unnaturally prolonging life would win out over his academic interest in any new knowledge but either way, hopefully his response will be telling.

We've also, in the past week, seen what emphasis Tosha puts on loyalty. Where he has given his loyalty, he seems almost Hufflepuffian in seeking to keep it there. On the other hand, loyalty is a two-way street and Tosha has said that Voldemort is not pulling his weight, so maybe that's in the Pro column for turning against LV and towards his brothers and sisters. (PS: kudos to the players for actually incorporating the canonical message of "the inability to understand love/loyalty will undo Voldemort" on multiple fronts!)

For the foreseeable future, I can't imagine him altering his support and, more importantly, I'm not sure what could ensue if he did. If Voldemort had really died, I don't think anything would have meaningfully changed with the Council running things and there's no third party that would allow him to indulge his love of the Dark Arts without also involving terrible acts. Obviously, these baby steps do really truly matter but I've having trouble conceiving of what would get him to the point of a Macnair-esque shift.

What do y'all think would get him there?

(Zoinks, that came out significantly longer than I was expecting for something that was just me talking out loud.)

[teceler]

Aw, thanks, but kiya did most of the work and analysis. I just grabbed those links from the recent stuff.

And yeah, that's really the key question isn't it? And I think you've pinned it down fairly well. I'm not sure what connections he had with the others before Voldemort's rise to power started--that could also have been a secondary factor, but I seriously doubt it was the primary one. He seems to prize the world they have (or, well, I suppose there's a remote possibility that's he's trying to convince himself it was worth it, but I doubt that.) And considering how fuzzy he is on the blood issue, I think is is primarily the issue of the Dark Arts.

Well, at the moment, the scales seem to be tipped enough with the problems with working with Voldemort to at least strain his loyalties. But I understand what you mean. I think something happening now is more likely to have an impact, because he's stretched so close to the breaking point.

He does greatly value loyalty, and that's been very clear recently. But Voldemort isn't the only person he has loyalty to, and I think that'll be a very important factor, especially with Voldemort's neglect of that. I think what's going on with Lucius is going to be an important factor, especially if Voldemort starts punishing the family (and especially if Narcissa enlists Barty to help protect Draco or Lucius, as someone was proposing elsewhere). I think something happening with Siz and Raz might also be a factor--especially since he promised Siz that if it was in his power he wouldn't allow her to be harmed. (Also Sally-Anne, Justin, those of the ISS with ties to his circle (Hydra, Draco, Pansy) and Minerva could be factors.)

That said, (re: Macnair) I really can't see him working with the Order. There's too much history and bad blood and such there, on both sides. Raz I could maybe barely see working with them, under the right circumstances, but I can't stretch my imagination far enough to see Doholov and the Order working together.
I could see him working to take down Voldemort, though, given the right kind of pressure. I can even see him maybe working with the ISS, eventually, if very loosely, and if only because everyone survived the incident at the DoM and is recovering. (I can't see the Order being particularly happy about this, but I can also see them decided to take care of him after the overthrow Voldemort).

I think, honestly, of the Council, Doholov is in the best position to try to pull off a coup if he wanted to, in terms of allies. Especially if he could manage to persuade Barty (which would probably be touch and go, and depend largely on what finally pushed him over the edge, but is definitely something to consider.) On the other hand, if Voldemort has any idea of how much power Doholov has in the Council--which he can't be entirely blind to--Doholov would have to be very careful (which I can see him pulling off) and would probably have trouble getting near the horcruxes.

Anyway, back on the topic at hand. I think if the LP had killed Lucius during that audience, one of the (many) affects would have been to break Doholov's loyalty to Voldemort. (This was part of the reason--along with all the other interesting affects it would have on character arcs--that I was so worried for Lucius there). So something like that. I'm really not seeing him going now Macnair's path, though, as I said. I think he'd put together his own conspiracy. He certainly has the resources. And I have a sneaking suspicion if he did so he'd try to recruit some of the ISS (which was how I saw them getting involved above), because, well, some of them are among his best students, and they've proven themselves willing to work against the regime (breaking into the DoM?).

Ahem. Which is to say, when I'm not getting distracted by thinking out loud about possibilities, he would be very valuable in overthrowing Voldemort, if he could be pushed to that point. Also, it would be really really awesome to watch. Well, fascinating, at least.

I'm not sure what exactly would prove the breaking point for his loyalty to Voldemort, or if we'll even hit it (though the players do seem to be setting up some kind of question as to the matter). And, um, I'm going to stop rambling now, but his response to Barty's post, and what Hydra ends up finding out, are going to be telling, as are his actions in the near future.

[contrariwise]

What you said about Lucius dying... I think that's true, but I think Voldemort killing Barty would not just break Dolohov's loyalty but shatter it into a million tiny pieces. Of course that's unlikely to happen since Barty's pretty loyal to Voldemort (despite a comment or two after his "death"), and I can't see it unless Voldemort just plain went (extra) crazy with the disproportional reactions, or if he tried to kill Dolohov and Barty jumped in the way or something.

But if Barty died for any reason that would leave Dolohov right on the tipping point, and just about anything could get him working toward overthrowing Voldemort at that point. (Though like others have said, not with the Order.)

[teceler]

Yeah, I could see Voldemort's anger getting turned on Barty, possibly in a situation with the Malfoys or something (which... I'm actually not sure what that would do re: Dolohov's loyalties. WOuld probably depend on the degree, and when it happened, I guess), but not Voldemort killing him, barring further deterioration.

If he blamed Voldemort, yeah, I think you're right. (...on the other hand, depending on how it happened, it could be... very bad for the Order.)

[kiya]

So, what do we think are Dolohov's loyalties?

* Voldemort
* The 'brotherhood' of Death Eaters comes up (and when I was reading back through things, Snape said specifically that Dolohov was the one who was big on treating it that way)
* His adoptive brother Lucius
* Narcissa? Or is that subsidiary to Lucius?
* His adoptive (officially) son Barty
* His religious principles
* Whatever task or tasks Voldemort has explicitly set him to (Snape noted that what he might be up to if he's at Hogwarts explicitly as a teacher would be very different than if that was his cover mission for something else)
* The duties he associates with teaching
* His investment in his particular "bright light" students
* Siz (seems to be distinct from the ties that go with the 'brotherhood' she's in in-law of since her relationship with Raz; I actually feel like he may be closer to her than Raz in some ways, but that may just be because Raz doesn't post often?)
* His ethics (at the very least a principle to not harm innocents, which Barty twitted him about, and which someone pointed out came up with the whole Grand Adventure thing with the little girl)
* Is Harry even on this list, or is any special care Harry gets derived from 'what is in Voldemort's interests' or 'what I do as a teacher?'
* I think this is worth explicitly noting: his loyalty to the Noble Arts themselves

[kiya]

I seem to remember that he said something about the value of tradition, particularly the traditions of old wizarding families. I don't recall where, but it seems consistent with him because, well:

It is worth noting - as this is something that isn't necessarily obvious to people who don't have a background like mine - ancient Egyptian culture was in many ways very conservative and oriented towards tradition. A lot of innovations had to be framed in terms that made them treatable as "basically the same as the way it's always been". So the artistic style for the most part didn't change all that much, and the changes that happened had to be assimilated to the aesthetic ethos from before; the ritual language ossified (much like Latin when the Romance languages evolved from it); etc.

He talked about adopting Barty in part so that the magics that would die out with his line would be able to be passed on to a further generation, because otherwise as the last of his kin of that bloodline they would be lost. (Something about choosing an heir is in this conversation with Barty, but ah, this exchange in the comments with Narcissa does. I knew I wasn't pulling that out of my ass entirely.)

This preservation and cherishing of the old customs seems to be a deep-seated but subtle part of his character, and the subtlety is in part because wizarding culture is very areligious as a whole.

[teceler]

Right, I keep starting a reply to this and then getting lost partway through. So I'm going to say that is a very interesting insight into his character, and I think you're right about it being a pretty important facet.

I think that's actually something about him I've been trying to put a finger on for while--that sense of history, and cultural history, and how that plays into things.