another puzzle

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

Perhaps one of you pieced this together immediately. I haven't.

In the comments on alt_mcgonagall's 17 September Order Only post, Molly Weasley asks McGonagall if Lucius Malfoy asked to see "the book" during his visit to the castle. McGonagall responds: "As for the book - no, he did not. I believe we've duped him - at least this year."


Thoughts?




Aside: the question has been raised (on the previous thread) whether to start threads for each separate topic or whether this community risks developing too many simultaneous conversations. My vote is for making new posts for each separate topic (and for fresh rounds of speculation on old topics after they've lain dormant for a while). I find this helps me navigate the community if I want to find what someone said on a particular issue. For what it's worth (and in anticipation of the day when it becomes an issue for us), I also think it's helpful to keep threads from collapsing to outline by starting a new post to continue the ongoing conversation.

Comments

But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

I like your idea that it is magically updated so that what it contains cannot, perhaps, be controlled by McGonagall. Otherwise, one would think that the general enrollment census would not contain information she wishes to keep secret from the Lord Protector.


I would imagine that if she could, McGonagall would keep a "double set of books," as it were.

So why can't she?

And.

If the Hogwarts enrollment list updates magically -- and if the Ministry wants to monitor that information -- why wouldn't the book have a magical double in the Ministry's archives? Or why wouldn't that information appear in whatever population census the Ministry *does* surely keep?

I guess I have difficulty with the notion that the Order has managed to insert Muggle-born children undetected into wizarding foster families without the real parentage appearing automatically in the Ministry's records -- especially if there's some enrollment book at Hogwarts that can't be prevented from recording that same true information. In other words, if McGonagall can't keep the true biographical information for those students out of a book she has in her own keeping, how can the Order possibly have kept it out of the Ministry's census records? --

Because the game says so, perhaps, but I'd love to see them work out this wrinkle if it is one.


Is there more to be inferred about the book and the information it contains?

1. It is not a new issue:

It seems that Malfoy has asked in the past to see the book (http://alt-mcgonagall.livejournal.com/1242.html?thread=4314#t4314) and that McGonagall may have deflected his request. This time he didn't even ask. (Perhaps he has too many other irons in the fire, what with personally vetting Prophet articles, attending to matters of the Wizengamot, looking over the shoulders of Magical Law Enforcement, taking meetings with all and sundry, and dropping in at Hogwarts to snoop and pressure take tea with his son and the Lord Protector's.)


2. If the problem is that it contains information that would reveal a student's true parentage, it can't have been an issue of long-standing:

If the book contains information about Hogwarts students, I'd expect this might be the first year for which the presence of fostered Muggleborn students would be an issue. Presumably the practice began no earlier than 1981 (when the Potters were killed) as book canon instructs us that while Voldemort had supporters within the government and its agencies, he was not in control of the Ministry and was certainly not then the Lord Protector. Perhaps we can imagine that a few of the fostered children were older than Harry Potter, but it must be difficult to secretly place children into families once they are older than toddlers. (And even then you'd think neighbours and acquaintances would have noticed save in the case of a wizarding family that lived in greatest isolation from other magical people.)

So, at most, we might think that they might have needed to worry last year and perhaps the year previous about Malfoy's demand to see the book?

I can live with this explanation of the bits and pieces, but it still somehow feels as if there are pieces that strain or pieces I'm not seeing.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[brimtoast.livejournal.com]

The book is real, and I think we should assume it's one-of-a-kind, like Harry's invisibility cloak or other such artifacts.

From the wikipedia entry for Hogwarts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogwarts):
"A magical quill at Hogwarts detects the birth of wizard children and writes their names into a large parchment book.[13] Every year, a teacher (in recent years, Minerva McGonagall) checks this book and sends a letter to the children who will have turned eleven years old by 31 August."

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

Thanks: that's a bit of canon (or JKR-revelation) that I'd missed altogether, but it stands to reason as an explanation of how Hogwarts knows which children should receive invitations.


I have a hard time, though, accepting that the Ministry has no magical census on the Wizarding population. Of course, JKR's magical world has always had some simply bizarre holes.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Just casting a net, here, for some possible related evidence on the book issue:

1. Interesting that on the 17th, the day of Lucius' visit and McG's deception, was the same day Sally-Anne Perks reported that business with the biting book that escaped from Madame Pince -- and Pince was angry when Sally-Anne tried to look at the title.

2. If you want to temporarily hide books, maybe sending them out for re-binding offers a good excuse. And Hermione is -- or was -- responsible for rebinding. So is this another way she is being used, here, and is she aware of what's going on?

3. The more I think about it, the odder it seems that Pince would share, and Hermione would post, that picture (http://alt-hermione.livejournal.com/2051.html) of a page of Runic text on the 10th. I mean, it's pretty, but it's the only graphic post like that so far. Could it contain some sort of code or secret announcement, that couldn't be shared (or wouldn't have had the same authority) as a simple posting under Order Only?

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

I like your #3!

I've no idea what to do with it, though.

This seems to be the RL text from which that image was borrowed for the game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Runicus).

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I've no idea what to do with it, though.

Me neither, but that's never stopped us before . . .

Maybe the quill writes in runic, so the page is from The Book. Per your wikipedia entry, the codex includes a list of names, Danish Kings in the real version. A list of magical names might look similar to a casual observer. Who would look twice?

If there's a Hermione-Library-Book connection, I wonder what that says about Lupin's interest in Hermione. I had assumed Lupin was benevolent and Sirius was being paranoid, because I couldn't think of anything that would make Hermione specifically of interest to a spy. But if she's a key player in the child-substitution operation, that's different.

And now I wonder about Hermione's parents' role -- don't they move from camp to camp as dentists? (I'm sorry, I can't find that cite and may be mis-remembering, though Hermione talks about "the camps" (http://alt-hermione.livejournal.com/2398.html) they lived in.) If so, would that have made the whole Granger family perfect agents for this sort of business as well?

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[borgin.livejournal.com]

Hermione talks about her parents moving between camps in her profile (http://alt-hermione.livejournal.com/profile).

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I knew I'd seen that somewhere. So that gives them unusual mobility for Muggles, positions them nicely for intelligence activities. Hmmmmm.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

It would be very interesting if "the book" were one of the library books that have been encountered by students -- hide in plain sight, indeed!

I'd enjoy the irony if it were Sally-Anne who'd gotten close, but I thought that the biting book was The Monster Book of Monsters, which Hermione mentions (admittedly in a circumstance that makes it seem likely that it wasn't really the book that caused the injury) (http://alt-hermione.livejournal.com/1609.html?thread=4937#t4937).

I think #2 is the more likely scenario. McGonagall might well have taken the precautionary measure of providing herself with a concrete excuse for not being able to show Malfoy the book (and then he failed to ask).

The bigger point that I think you are making is that the players are doing a fabulous job of layering in plot details that may seem irrelevant in their moment of mention, but which are beginning to have significant pay-offs.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

FWIW, Draco in Sally-Anne's biting book post suggests that "a" biting book is something you can make just to show that you can. So, there might be more than one, it might not be Monsters, especially if Hermione is good at making "special" covers like she did with Slughorn's potion book. I admit it's a reach to tie Sally-Anne in, here, but I'm leaning toward "not disproven." :)

the players are doing a fabulous job of layering in plot details that may seem irrelevant in their moment of mention, but which are beginning to have significant pay-offs

Most definitely. Which makes it great fun to be a watcher.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

but I'm leaning toward "not disproven." :)

As we all know by now, I'm a firm believer in holding in play all possibilities that have not yet been disproven. Doesn't mean I'm not glad to see the field of possibilities reduced eventually or that I can't recognize relative degrees of probability, but I'm with you in appreciating the possibilities while they remain possible.

Or something like that.

:)

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Or something like that.

I believe the technical term is "bumbling off after red herrings," and I am all for it! ;)

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[jenett]

(And even then you'd think neighbours and acquaintances would have noticed save in the case of a wizarding family that lived in greatest isolation from other magical people.)

I was thinking about this - the impression you get in the books is that by and large they *don't* know each other before arrival.

It's not like "Oh, Ron, how've you been since I saw you last month?" - it mostly looks like a whole bunch of new-forming friendships, with a few exceptions. (Draco/Crabbe/Goyle, for example, where it's pretty clear their parents see each other regularly.)

It's not just the Muggle-born (where it'd make sense) - but you'd think that if there was a lot of cross-family visiting, Ron would know a few people and point them out, rather than immediately falling in with Harry and Hermione sort of out of default - there's got to be friends of his brothers around somewhere, right?

And you get the sense in the Quidditch Championship that most of the younger set aren't used to the large community gathering stuff either.

Given that, I don't think it's impossible you'd have rather isolated wizarding families. Maybe there's something about not being able to use the floo network until you have your own wand or something else that's a natural age-limiter for under 11. So you'd see the people near your home, but not most others without a lot of extra effort.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's impossible you'd have rather isolated wizarding families.

I think this is definitely canonical. And I think you are especially right about the isolation of under-elevens. Adults seem to connect through work and other social avenues (mostly left unspecified in canon), but folks seem to know other folks when we see them out shopping in Diagon Alley or Hogsmeade, for instance. And we know that Hogsmeade is the only wizarding-only community, but I don't think we have a reason to suppose that most families live in isolation. (I think Rowling just left some gaps in what she described. For instance, the first chapter of Book One has Uncle Vernon travelling past clusters of people in pointy hats and cloaks on what turns out to be the day after Harry survives Voldemort's attack on Godric's Hollow. This happens near his office "in town" [which could be anywhere in greater London but seems from the text to be right in Little Whinging] -- but maybe Surrey, like London, has an unusually high density of magical people. Anyway, the point is we don't get a lot of discussion from Rowling about the pattern of Wizarding settlement in the UK and the evidence we have is mixed.)

Ron's family may be a good test of your point. It seems that their place outside the "village" of Ottery St. Catchpole must be pretty remote, and Ron doesn't seem to know many other kids when he arrives at Hogwarts, yet the Weasleys are not alone when they reach the old boot that turns out to be the Portkey to the World Cup match -- the Diggories live close enough to join them for the journey. Still, it doesn't seem that Cedric grew up playing with the Weasley boys.

Just one of those things that canon leaves relatively open-ended.

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[jenett]

Yep.

The adults definitely do meet up - the stuff you cited, but also, they've just got obviously more options for transport (apparation, not just floo.)

But I seem to remember the thing with the portkey being "Oh, you know Cedric from school" not "Oh, hi, Cedric, you haven't droped in this vacation, done anything fun?" like you might if cross-connections between kids were common. (I mean, they obviously don't live *that* far away, if the port key location is in common, but it's equally clear they're not in and out of each other's homes regularly.)

It's also interesting - the Weasleys invite Harry and Hermione for vacations, but you don't really see that happening with anyone else, even in passing. Nor do you see them hosting social events, even very casual ones. (And if I'm right, the family 'clock' has settings for home and work and school and mortal danger and such - but not for "out with friends." (My copies are up in the top of my pantry shelves, and I'm in the midst of cleaning up after major cooking, so I am not going to go dig up now, but I think that's right.)

Which suggests that even the adults go out to 'neutral' ground rather than have each other over. (Wizarding pubs, etc.) A perfectly logical explanation would have to do with magical home protections: if you have a dinner party, you'd be allowing people to come inside those protections and potentially do not-great things, or manipulate future access. So even parents bringing their kids over to play would be a little tricky from that POV.

Y'know, put like this, it's a little odd the kids are as well socialised as they are: for dropping them all into a shared room living situation at the start of school, things go surprisingly smoothly. Maybe for wizarding kids, there's a special socialisation curriculum the year before they turn 11 or something. (Muggle-born kids wouldn't have that issue, since they'd presumably be used to being at school with others.)

Re: But then Questions Arise...

[lapin-agile.livejournal.com]

You have me thinking about this, and I think we have to be cautious in taking the Weasleys' experience as a model for all wizarding families -- for at least two reasons:

First, the Weasleys were and are part of the Order, so they have, perhaps, self-isolated from all but Order folks (and none of the rest of *them* have children. (Rather, the Longbottoms and Potters did, but the first are incapacitated and Neville's gran is not apparently against exposing Neville to any risks -- and the Potters are dead, but the Weasleys *do* include Harry in their circle as soon as he's allowed back into wizardom at age 11).

Second, Mr Weasley is pretty marginalised professionally and seems to be viewed by other adults either as a bit of a nutter, as a social embarrassment (downwardly mobile because of his big family and pitiful career trajectory), or as a blood traitor. So it's not much of a surprise to think that the children don't have play dates growing up because no one will let *their* kids play with those Weasleys.

We don't get a clear view of this because we see everything from Harry's point of view: in the early books he does not have a clear understanding of adult social codes; throughout, he sees the Weasleys through rose-coloured glasses (he loves this big family that embraces him); and as he gets old enough to see more clearly, the political situation gets dangerous and the Order circles the wagons so its no wonder that the Weasleys rarely socialize with other families in Harry's presence.

Last thought:
One example of a big social gathering that might stand as evidence in your discussion of the dangers of letting acquaintances through your wards is the Weasley wedding in Book 7. An extreme case, but a case in point for your argument.